[Pipe and Drape theme plays.]
STEPHEN FALA: One of the things that I, I forget when you mentioned this before, but I remember you saying that you used to love drawing sets, like your doodles were different sets. And that's something that I remembered because that's something that I would always do. Like I have like a sketchbook filled with them.
CHRIS LUNER: I'm so impressed that you remembered me drawing sets from high school. Oh my God. Like, I still do that all the time. It was funny you said you have a book of sketches. I have books of sketches all the time and I still have one to this day that I draw sets for that I think about and things like that or I also, I tend to draw like a lot of theatre spaces now that I wish I had millions of dollars to build, but maybe one day.
CHRIS LUNER: I'm so impressed that you remembered me drawing sets from high school. Oh my God. Like, I still do that all the time. It was funny you said you have a book of sketches. I have books of sketches all the time and I still have one to this day that I draw sets for that I think about and things like that or I also, I tend to draw like a lot of theatre spaces now that I wish I had millions of dollars to build, but maybe one day.
STEPHEN: I believe in you. That's something that I, that I did too and I thought I was the only one who would be not paying attention in class ‘cause in the corner I'm like, ‘Okay, well the proscenium is this. And then…’
STEPHEN: I’m Stephen Fala, and you’re listening to Pipe and Drape, the only podcast that spotlights the creative minds behind the Theatre For Young Audiences industry. Every two weeks I sit down with a theatre professional to hear their stories about the audition, rehearsal, and development process of theatre for young audiences. Each of them have bridged the path from youth to adulthood while working in the theatre for young audiences industry. My guests have mounted shows small enough to fit in a minivan to productions so big they travel by caravan. You can join the conversation by emailing PipeAndDrapeStories@gmail.com or messaging @PipeAndDrapeStories Instagram.
This pipe and drape story covers the duties of a production manager working at the only Off Broadway theatre dedicated to producing theatre for young audiences. My guest grew up with a desire to learn everything about the business, and as a production manager, he has been able to put his years of education to use by overseeing every department from a production’s start to finish. Thank you for listening with me today.
STEPHEN: Hi everyone, I’m chatting with Producer, Broadway and Off Broadway Production Manager, and Artistic Director Chis Luner. Chris recently produced and assistant directed the film Ranch Water, which screened at festivals all across the country. He worked on the Tony Award winning production of Indecent, the original and Broadway production of Pretty Woman; he was the production manager for Broadway’s West Side Story, the Transport Group’s revival of The Unsinkable Molly Brown starring Beth Malone, Alex Wyse and Ben Fankhauser’s Off Broadway run of A Commercial Jingle for Regina Comet; he was the production supervisor for The Illusionists - Witness the Impossible on tour; he worked on productions in Atlanta, San Francisco, Chicago; and the list of shows he has put up goes on and on. In addition to working in film and on Broadway, Chris spends his summers back in home in Delaware County, Pennsylvania to serve as Artistic Director of Upper Darby Summer Stage, which is the performing arts training ground where we met! Each summer he returns to the Philadelphia area teach kids how to fill the world with love, and he oversees a dozen productions with magic up their sleeve. Today we are going to hear about Chris’ experience as production manager for Jim Henson’s Emmet Otter’s Jug-Band Christmas which played Off Broadway at the New Victory theatre in 2021. Chris, welcome, thank you for sitting down with me today.
CHRIS: Thanks so much for having me!
STEPHEN: It’s been a minute. You’ve been traveling all over, you've recently been screening your film Ranch Water at different festivals, hopping back between Texas and New York, between filming, screening, and editing, and still somehow managed to take the time to work on shows up here, which is amazing. So I wanna know, what my audience wants to know, is how you started. You’ve recently worked on a large scale show for kids, but at one point you were one of the kids watching children's theatre. Do you remember your first exposure to theatre as a kid?
CHRIS: Yeah, I think my first exposure to theatre as a kid was actually as an audience member, which is the way I kind of hope that it is for everyone. Someone can, you know, sit in that seat and be inspired and watch what's happening on stage and say like, ‘I would love to be a part of that.’ And I remember having that experience as a very young child in elementary school and continuing into middle school and then eventually expressing interest in joining that the theatrical community to a teacher of mine who then physically pushed me into that process and said, ‘You are auditioning for the show. You're gonna be in this production of, You're a Good Man, Charlie Brown,’ which was my first show ever. And I haven't looked back since.
STEPHEN: You are a huge part of the behind the scenes part of theatre. When you were a kid, were you, did you find yourself taking interest in those fastest as well in addition to being on stage?
CHRIS: You know, I think when I think I started like theatre just like anyone else does, where I started out performing on stage and I know that's how we met. And we even did a couple shows together, which was so fun thinking back on those now. And I always enjoyed performing, but I think when it came to thinking more like long term and things like that, I just knew that I wanted to stay in the world of theatre but didn't necessarily see myself performing on stage. So I kind of looked around me, I would say, in the world of theatre that I was in at the time, which was Upper Darby Summer Stage, and kind of figured out whose work I enjoyed seeing and how do I emulate that, which is then how I ended up pursuing a degree in arts administration.
STEPHEN: So you ended up going to school in New York and then you're thrust into the world, the industry of performing arts. What did you do once you graduated?
CHRIS: You know, I don't really know that there was a…in terms of like, what did I do exactly? I think I just say yes to opportunities and kind of just tend to see what comes out of them. That's like a big thing. Even if I don't necessarily know what I'm signing myself up for, which I think is most of the time I just say yes and I kind of figure it out along the way. But after college I would say I dabbled in some work. I worked in general management and company management in a small office and then enjoyed that, but found it wasn't for me. So then I tried freelance stage managing for a while and then eventually kind of fell into the world that I'm in now, which is production management. People kept suggesting that I look into that because I understood how all of the aspects of the show went together, not only from the performance perspective, I understood how the set worked and the lights and putting all of those pieces together. And I will say I blissfully ignored them. And then people just started submitting me for production manager jobs for shows that they were working on. And I was sort of like, okay, well I guess I have to take these and I've just been there ever since now going on I mean more than six years now here in New York.
STEPHEN: Wow. What was your education like either before college or at university as far as those other aspects of theatre? What was your exposure to set construction, design, building all, all of the, the things that go into management?
CHRIS: Yeah, I mean, in terms of anything before college I would say I wasn't necessarily as exposed to all of that and understood like how it all went together. I worked a couple jobs working as like a stage manager or an assistant stage manager. But at that level there's some management and paperwork involved, but not really understanding how it all goes together. It was really when I went to Wagner College in New York that…the program that they have there is just so excellent because essentially Wagner's approach is you have to understand how everything works in order to do any portion of it, which I 100% agree with and I think is so important. So even as an arts administration major, my degree was half theatre work and half business work. So I was taking scenic design and lighting design and working on shows, but at the exact same time, I'm taking marketing and not-for-profit management all while also having to take an acting class and a dance class so I understand how the performers work. And the well-rounded approach I think was something that at the time I sort of was like, well, why is this needed? And now looking on it in hindsight, I'm always so glad that I had that experience and was forced to do things that even at the time I was doing them weren't enjoyable or weren't my top priority, I should say, at that moment. It's better prepared me down the line for the line of work that I'm currently in.
STEPHEN: How did you get involved with Jim Henson?
CHRIS: I work often with um, Tim McDonald who is a theatrical producer and a book writer. And Tim is the producer and book writer of Jim Henson’s Emmet Otter's Jug-Band Christmas. So the Tim initially approached me asking if I was interested in production managing the show. It had been done some many years ago at Goodspeed in Connecticut, but this was sort of like the New York staging of it finally and also the New York theatrical premiere for Jim Henson, which was really so exciting for everyone at that company. Like that was the one thing in chatting with them, Jim had always been so interested in, was like a stage show in New York with these puppets that I hesitate to even call puppets because they're characters of their own and they have such life to them and bringing that to audiences and young audiences specifically who can enjoy that. So I got involved when Tim reached out to me and I love working with Tim and he's actually the creator of iTheatrics who develops young theatrical shows for young audiences. They create like the Junior series that are often with MTI. So it was kind of a no-brainer and I was like, I'm in.
STEPHEN: And we have some experiences together on those on those junior shows back in camp.
CHRIS: Yes.
STEPHEN: So he takes you on, what was the, the pre-production work like for you as a production manager?
CHRIS: Yeah, you know, the world of production management is so fascinating because we are one of the first, we're one of the only people I would say who's involved from the very beginning of the production process to the very end. And at no point in that process does anything look similar or is any day the same while we're doing pre-production. You know, we're talking with the producer and the director and the designers saying like, ‘What do we want this show to be? What do we want it to look like? What do we want it to feel like?’ And for the most part I would say we often start with the set sometimes since that literally paints the picture of what is being done and then we work with the other departments to say, okay, how can we all collaborate together and do this? So that was a lot of the pre-production work was figuring out what had been done in the previous show that worked, what didn't work and how did we want to adjust for a New York audience that, you could argue, wanted this story now more than ever—just the story of like compassion and second chances and family and friends and things like that. So a lot of the pre-production process though for production managers is working through budgets, working through calendars, and that is sort of like very repetitive ‘cause you know, you do it for the scenic department and you think you're good to go and then you have to do it for the lighting department and the sound department and the props department and costumes. And so it's a lot of the pre-production is just planning to ensure that once we actually get into the space, we can have actual success.
STEPHEN: You have hands in all of these different departments from the beginning.
CHRIS: Yeah, a lot of different hats.
STEPHEN: Yeah. Oh my gosh. A lot of times with theatre for young audiences there is not a lot of money. Your set is made out of PVC pipes and it's two actors and you're in a minivan from the nineties. This is a little bit different because you are mounting a show with this company and it is in New York, it is in the heart of the theatre district. Were there still limitations, budget-wise, even when working with such a large company on such a large scale?
CHRIS: Yeah, you know, I think one thing that can kind of be tricky about working in theatre in general, no matter what scale you are, even Broadway sometimes is depending on who you chat with, there's never enough time and there's never enough money. But that's kind of what I love about the pre-production process is working together to say here's the time we have, here's the resources we have, how do we make the most of this experience so that we can deliver for our audience and in this case our young audience at the end of the day. So I think the opportunity to get to work on this was really exciting because it was saying as, as someone who has worked in children's theatre my entire life for the most part, I was granted this opportunity to present a show beloved by young audiences in the only theatre in New York that is dedicated to presenting shows for children and families. And that is their sole mission. And you know, I can't speak highly enough about the New Victory team and all of the work that they do. We could talk about that for hours. But there were restrictions that we had while doing this, but I think we figured out how to make the most of them. Not only given that, I think theatre itself is such a tricky art form to put together, but especially in the time that we were in with everything going on in the world. While there was obviously limitations in regards to budgets, something that was really exciting about doing Emmet Otter at the new victory was when it came to building the set or renting lights and sound systems and everything like that, we are working with um, Off Broadway and Broadway shops to do this. We had a set built in a fully union shop, which is really exciting on Pittsburgh and we're renting gear from houses that also supply gear to Broadway's shows. So I think it's this really exciting moment of seeing this children's theatre show, like you said, that is typically like produced on a dime being presented with an actual budget in New York City right on 42nd Street. And that was really exciting to see that.
STEPHEN: Did you rely heavily on their marketing team to get the word out to audiences? ‘Cause usually with a lot of times with TYA you reach out to schools and you're like, ‘Do you want to play?’ And they're like, ‘Yeah, probably,’ but here it's a little different. You are pulling people into the space. Did the Emmet Otter team have their own marketing department or were you working very much with people already established at the theatre?
CHRIS: Yeah, I think something that was so exciting about presenting Emmet Otter with the New Victory was they already have such a built in audience base who is committed to what they're producing and what they're providing to young audiences and families. That it was kind of a collaboration where typically commercial shows in New York kind of have their own team, they function as a business and we kind of have our own marketing team and everything like that. And this was kind of like a mix of both worlds where we had a marketing team but also also the New Victory has a marketing team. And it was a lot of collaboration about, okay, this is our show and you guys have a great audience and everything like that, so how do we work together to provide the best possible experience for everyone and also get the word out about that.
STEPHEN: Did you notice any differences producing this content Off Broadway verse some of the shows that you did on Broadway?
CHRIS: Yeah, I mean I think in terms of, aside from the things that I would say are generically different just about Broadway and Off Broadway in general like calendar and budgets and things like that, there was definitely for this show such a focus on what the experience was going to be for the young audience. And that was not only with the onstage performances by the actors, but also talking about how these puppets, as I previously said, are such characters in themselves and how did they not only interact in the show, but how do they interact with the audience and how do they bring this whole world that Jim Henson created to life and you know, that then spilled into the set design and what does the design actually look like or what does the sound sound like? Is it friendly to a young audience? So things like that. Yeah, yeah, I would say an overall focus on like what the family experience was in recreating this classic for the stage was definitely something that I saw in this production compared to Broadway shows where a lot of the time it's a new show and it's either like very specific or it's like over the top very splashy.
STEPHEN: Can you walk us through what you had to oversee when everything had to come in from the studios, from Pittsburgh?
CHRIS: One of the things I love about production managing is I'm there day one we're at the theatre and it begins with making sure the stage is prepared and I'm there when the lights are going up and the sound is being hung and then the scenery comes in the door and it's really exciting to put all of those pieces together and it's also a very unique jigsaw puzzle at the exact same time to figure out how you can accomplish all these tasks with so many different people working in the space with so many different individual goals but overall the same long-term goal on the end. ‘Cause you have one crew that's just handling the scenery and you have one crew that's just handling the lighting. So, starting day one with load in, we have lights coming in from New York, we have sound coming in from New Jersey, we have a set coming in from Pittsburgh and it's just kind of like organized chaos if you've done the work correctly. So it was just like. I would say the day, the first day we got into the New Victory, it's putting all the pieces together, getting the setup as quickly as possible because once that is physically in place, so many other things just begin to fall in place as well. You know, we know where we can put lights, we know where we can put props, and then just when we think we've probably had everything settled, the rehearsal process is ending and all of this stuff from rehearsal comes over and then kind of makes a new mess. And it's funny, typically in this case you're bringing props from rehearsals, you're bringing actors, you're bringing personal belongings, supplies, but in the case of Emmet Otter, you're also bringing, 30+ puppets this time as well. So we have a huge delivery of puppets that come in the door and you know, we obviously are taking the utmost care of them so they're packed so carefully and then we have to place them really carefully in certain spots backstage so that we know they're safe and they're not gonna get bumped. So, that's sort of like before anything even begins with the actors of like, how do we put this show together? There's a huge loading process of putting in all these individual elements and then we dive into tech rehearsal where the tech and the actors begin to work together. And then throughout all of that as well, there’s work notes happening in the morning before we have the cast on stage in the afternoon and those work notes typically encompass changes that are happening. For Emmet Otter specifically, something that came up a lot of times that I had never really dealt with on another show was puppet repair and we need puppet repair time and puppet adjustments because the puppeteers are doing actions on stage and they're learning things that do and don't work about the way the puppets are built and rigged to do certain actions. And then they're saying, okay, I actually need the rod that controls the hand to enter from here as opposed to there. And it was something I had never dealt with before. So getting to collaborate with the Jim Henson Company, I mean one, that's like a dream come true in itself I think, but also the people who work at the Jim Henson Company are some of the greatest people I've ever worked with I think in entertainment. They care about each of those puppets and characters as if they're their own kids and they're brilliant storytellers and they go above and beyond in any case. And that was the case with Emmet Otter. So they also made my job really easy as, as we check the show, I would say we're learning what does and doesn't work from the previous incarnation or what we had planned. And now once we're actually seeing it on stage, we go, oh, okay, well that doesn't work as well. And adjusting as we go, there's a lot of adjustments and I think that's something I oddly really enjoy about live theatre is that it's live so it's never really complete in a certain sense. It is always changing and growing, and while each performance that an audience comes to see is their own experience each day kind of brings forth a new challenge and a new adjustment to say, ‘How do we get this piece of work a little bit closer to where we want it to be in the long run?’ But in the case of Emmet Otter where you have puppeteers who are working with puppets who are also characters in themselves, is all of these puppets are different and they require very specific things and sometimes that's a prop or an entrance. So it's a lot about figuring that out. And so it was interesting on our first day of tech it wasn't like, okay great, everyone's here, let's start the show. It was, okay, everyone, everyone's here, let's kind of figure out like if what we've done worked for the puppeteers. And that being said, they came in the door and there were a lot of adjustments that we learned of on the spot that we then had to kind of make immediately. And it was really funny ‘cause sometimes that required like moving a speaker so they could hear themselves better when they're voicing over one character or it's as drastic as saying the position where we wanted to put this puppet isn't big enough and then we're literally taking a saw to a set piece and just carving it out and just like full blown like demolition work on stage happening to make sure these puppets can do what they're meant to do. So that was something really unique, for them to come in and us to kind of almost like have to do another several hours of work before we were actually able to start then doing the storytelling portion of tech.
STEPHEN: Tech is notoriously long. The actors already have restrictions on how much time they can spend on stage, backstage, whatever. So what was that like for you? Someone that has to see has to put all of these pieces and teams together, coordinate different rules with different unions figuring out at times? Did you sleep
CHRIS: You know, sleep during tech week is usually questionable. Yes it is notoriously long and there's just never enough hours. When I work on shows a lot of the time, especially Off Broadway, as was the case with Emmet Otter, I'm the only member of the production management team. When you're in a theatre some days from 8:00AM to midnight, a member of the production management staff has to be there the entire time because we are the ones who kind of know how the whole thing goes together. And so there have been many sixteen hour days. That being said, during our tech process, we were very lucky the show did not do any ten out of twelves. You know, it sort of agreed with this universal approach of just trying to take better care of people both onstage and offstage. And I think that's really important because like you mentioned, actors have rules about how many hours they're able to work and the turnaround time and things like that, and there is that on the crew side as well Off Broadway and we had an amazing Local One crew at the new victory, arguably probably the best Local One staff I've ever worked with in New York. I mean, just the most generous people who actually care about the show and aren't just trying to put something in and then eventually load it out at the end of the day, they actually care about the storytelling, they want to know what you're trying to accomplish in the long run so that they can take steps to make sure throughout its run it's successful. So yeah, organizing all of that is kind of a lot to figure out how it goes together and what the schedules are. And I think to just go back to what I was kind of saying, it's just at, at the end of the day, you just need to make sure all of your people are taken care of. And I take that very personally as a production manager who, at the end of the day, is arguably responsible for everyone in the room, but especially the crew who can end up working a lot of the longest hours at the end of the process. You just need to make sure they get taken care of and people get rest and they know that the time they spend at the theatre is valued. Because at the end of the day, if you know you have people who are burned out or not feeling taken care of or not appreciated, that doesn't only just hurt them, it hurts your show and it just makes the production not so great in the long run. And the way to have a successful show is to take care of your people. So much of working on Emmet Otter and I think what makes it successful is not only obviously our team's care for the storytelling that's being done since it's so specific, but the Jim Henson Company is just so incredible in how they operate, and they were so helpful when we struggled or stumbled and said like, this isn't working the way we want it to or it's not looking the way we want it to, and they have so much input and advice from the years of films and television that they've done and other stage shows that they brought so much and I think also made Emmet Otter on stage at the New Victory such a magical experience for our audiences who are able to see the show.
STEPHEN: Can you tell me and everyone about the paperwork? What kind of paperwork are you doing as a production manager to prep your teams, prep your space get the show ready?
CHRIS: So in terms of paperwork, I would say all of it, but um, no, I'm just kidding. But in terms of paperwork, typically the process begins with me working with the general managers to get key dates of what the schedule looks like and then putting together the production calendar. Because once we have the production calendar, we can actually map out what this entire process looks like. We can see how many days of rehearsal there are, how many tech days, how many load in days, and then if we need to make any adjustments, we can do that once we actually see that painted out. But a lot of the time when people come to me with a show they say, here are the dates in like a list format and I actually put it on paper and figure out where that begins. And then during, I would say the pre-production process, it's a lot of bid paperwork, which is something I am continuing to learn about and the best way to go about doing that. But when you get the set design from the set designer, I then take the document, I review the whole thing and then I kind of break it down piece by piece, because typically it's multiple pages, the design, and each page has its own scenic element on it. So then I create what we call a bid letter. And the bid letter is like page one rolling wagon and you have to break down what the specifics are of like, um, ‘rolling wagon that is this long by this high wagon, should have wheels, wheels should be rubber.' And you break down every individual set piece in terms of those details all the way down to what the paint treatment should be, what the paint finish should be. And on a show like Emmet Otter specifically that, that show has a lot of moving parts. So sometimes you send out a bid letter that is like ten pages long with details on every single individual piece, which we then send to the shop. The shop comes back to us with questions since they can now see the details alongside the actual design. And then of course as it goes in any theatrical process, we make adjustments as we need to go and things like that. And that was something that happened during Emmet Otter. You know, originally there were a couple larger set pieces that we were hoping to include in this incarnation of the show and then just as we worked through said, I don't know that that is the most feasible for this year. So, they're, they're looking at hopefully doing those in later in incarnations of the stage show if those are able to happen. And then I kind of do that for every individual department, which at a certain point you're like, I actually know how many source four lights we have in the building because I've typed it out on paper so many times and weird things like that.
STEPHEN: And so once an audience filtered in, you've got that final piece of the puzzle, what was your duty of once the show opened?
CHRIS: Once the show opens, the production manager physically goes away in terms of we're not at the theatre every day like the stage managers just ‘cause we're not required to be there to operate it, but we are still involved, getting performance reports every single night or day after shows are happening and rehearsal reports if there's like a put-in or an understudy that needs to go on. And the reason why we're on those is because essentially once you agree to production manage a show, you not only agree to help put the show together and make sure that it all works, but you're agreeing to essentially keeping it in what I tend to call like opening night condition throughout the entire run of the show. So if at any point in the process, you know, one evening if I get a performance report that says, ‘Hey, these lights went out,’ it's my job as the production manager to figure out who can replace those lights so that we can make sure they're working for the next audience who's gonna come in the door. Or if a prop breaks or there's a mishap with a set piece that gets damaged or something like that, it's my job as the production manager to say, okay, how much does it cost to repair this and who can repair this? And then schedule all of that so that it kind of happens without anyone's knowing. So every time an audience comes in the door, they're just seeing the same consistent show time after time.
STEPHEN: Is there anything specific from this process working on this show with this company for an audience of kids living in a post-2020 world that you will take with you to your next production management producer, artistic director journey?
CHRIS: Yeah, I think, you know, as a production manager I'm always learning and I can always find out more about how to do my job better at the end of the day and how to collaborate with fellow artists as well. I think if there was anything that I learned from this entire process doing Emmet Otter at the New Victory, it only reaffirmed that there's no reason why young audiences who want to experience children's theatre shouldn't be able to experience that at the highest caliber possible. And when you have producers like Tim McDonald and organizations like the New Victory who are committed to doing that and are committed to saying a young audience member should have the right to go to a show and not only experience a good show, but a show that could potentially change their life and shape their life, whether that's them becoming someone who works in the arts or supports the arts for the rest of their life, that's beyond worth it at the end of the day no matter what.
STEPHEN: Chris, thank you for speaking with me today.
CHRIS: Thanks so much for having me. I really appreciate it.
STEPHEN: Where can our listeners see more of your work and find out what you are up to?
CHRIS: You can follow me along I would say on Twitter or Instagram at @Chris_Luner anytime. I'm always promoting on there what I'm up to, whether it's working here in New York or any portion across the country. Please feel free to check out the film I did Ranch Water, which you can find more information for at ranchwaterfilm.com. And I obviously invite all of you to join us in Upper Darby this summer or any summer to come see a production. We run every single summer from the first week of July through the second week of August. And you will not regret experiencing the magic of Upper Darby Summer Stage.
STEPHEN: If you were listening at the time of this episode's release, you have four more weeks to go to Upper Darby Summer Stage to catch one of the magical shows they're offering. And of course, if you have a child that's interested in creating theatre in any way, Upper Darby Summer Stage is an excellent training ground. It's a great opportunity to expose your children to theatre and for your kids to learn more about the art form and community, I've included a link to Upper Darby Summer Stage’s website in the show notes. If you are interested in looking into their programs.
[Pipe and Drape theme plays.]
You can join the conversation about theatre for young audiences and find more Pipe and Drape content including photos, quotes, and TYA news on Instagram @PipeAndDrapeStories. And please be sure to rate and review Pipe and Drape wherever you listen to podcasts! Each star given or review submitted helps future listeners to find the show. Be sure to tune in every other Tuesday to hear theatre for young audiences creatives share their pipe and drape stories. Pipe and Drape is created and hosted by Stephen Fala and distributed by Anchor. The Pipe and Drape logo was created by Stephen Gordon and music was composed by Stephen Fala. Thank you for listening with me today.
Find Chris Luner:
FACEBOOK: Chris Luner
TWITTER: @Chris_Luner
INSTAGRAM: @Chris_Luner
William H. Gray III 30th Street Station probably
FACEBOOK: Chris Luner
TWITTER: @Chris_Luner
INSTAGRAM: @Chris_Luner
William H. Gray III 30th Street Station probably
Connect with Pipe and Drape:
INSTAGRAM: @PipeAndDrapeStories
EMAIL: PipeAndDrapeStories@gmail.com
Host: Stephen Fala
Artwork: Stephen Gordon
